FILE 019: CIA x FBI
(music begins)
Walter: At CIA, we work around the clock and across the globe to help keep Americans and others around the world safe. Secrecy is often vital to our work.
Dee: But we’re committed to sharing what we can when we can. So let us be your guides around the halls of Langley as we open our files and speak with those who have dedicated themselves to this mission.
Walter: These are their stories.
Walter and Dee: This is The Langley Files.
(music continues)
Dee: You know the scene…
Walter: In a tense and ominous atmosphere, US officials are gathering for an emergency meeting about a national security crisis unfolding at that very moment.
Dee: They meet in a darkened conference room, lit only by the glow of the screens on the walls.
Walter: Why does it always have to be a darkened conference room?
Dee: Because! It has to be.
Walter: As officials continue to arrive, one is stopped at the door. “Sir,” an aide says, “you need to know—the Agency’s here. They’ve been brought into this.”
Dee: Meanwhile, inside, at the conference table, another aid passes a note to another official. “Ma’am—” it reads, “the Bureau’s on the way in.”
Walter: The door opens. Steely stares meet as the FBI official immediately clocks their counterpart from the CIA. Eyes narrow. Fists clench. A paper gets crumpled. It’s all very intense.
Dee: But wait, is that really how things work in today’s national security situations?
Walter: Spoiler alert: it’s not.
Dee: But then how do CIA & FBI collaborate to keep Americans safe? And what exactly are the differences between their roles and responsibilities?
Walter: Who does what? And where?
Dee: Well, today on The Langley Files, you’re going to find out. Because at this very moment, CIA Deputy Director David Cohen.
Walter: A returning fan favorite from our 6th episode.
Dee: And FBI Deputy Director Paul Abbate are getting settled in, here in our own darkened conference room, aka The Langley Files recording studio.
Walter: We repurposed a conference room.
Dee: It’s true.
Walter: I think I caught a steely glare just now.
Dee: Um, Walter, I think that was directed towards us.
Walter: We’ll talk to them about how CIA and FBI’s missions differ, and the different experiences of working at each. But, we’ll also hear about the vital teamwork between the two that keeps our country secure. Let’s get started.
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Dee: Welcome back everyone. I’m Dee.
Walter: And I’m Walter.
Dee: How cool is this to be sitting across from these two gentlemen right now?
Walter: It’s pretty incredible. One’s a fan favorite, and one came all the way over the Potomac to meet with us here today.
Dee: Absolutely. So Deputy Directors Cohen and Abbate, thank you very much for joining us. And I think we’re just gonna kick it right off and get right into the first question. We’re hoping you can share about yourselves – what drew you to public service and what drew you to national security?
Deputy Director Cohen: Paul, go ahead. You're the, you're the guest here at CIA.
Deputy Director Abbate: Thank you, David. I I'd have to reach back to my my childhood in terms of what drew me specifically to the FBI. When I was growing up, my parents brought us to Washington, DC to visit as tourists like many do. And we went and visited FBI headquarters. This is back in the 1970s, and we did a tour there, and I was just taken in early on by the experience there, particularly the the shooting. We have a firearms range which existed then and still is in place at headquarters. And we still have a public tour though it's much more controlled for security reasons than it was back then. I think back then you could just literally walk in off the street into the complex. But there's a firearms demonstration. It's conducted by a very formal and traditional looking FBI agent in a suit and a fedora with the Tommy gun. Historic, you know, firearm that was used back way back in the gangster days. And, uh, that really was one thing that got me very interested in the FBI particularly. And then also just through films and television, books. Back then I remember having a lot of interest and being drawn to that as well in the law enforcement profession generally and then toward the FBI more specifically. And then it's interesting, because at that time, I entered the FBI as an agent in 1996, pre-9/11, and it was all law enforcement focus for the most part then. So when I came into the FBI, that's what I was engaged on, you know, traditional criminal investigative work and white-collar crime, uh, initially was a squad that I was assigned to, and I didn't get into national security work for a number of years after that.
Deputy Director Cohen: So for me, I mean, it also goes back to my childhood, and we had a couple of different strands. One is I was fortunate, grew up in a like, solidly upper middle-class family in Lexington, Massachusetts. Both of my parents had grown up in sort of more humble circumstances, but had opportunities to get good educations, get good jobs, did reasonably well. And so I was the beneficiary of all that and sort of felt some obligation to give back. But as I mentioned, I also grew up in Lexington, Massachusetts which is the birthplace of the American Revolution, where the shot heard around the world on April 19th, 1775 was was first fired. And I remember as a kid, every April 19th they have a reenactment. I'd go down to the Lexington Green and put on my tricorn hat and watch the reenactment, and it sort of fed an interest in America and American government and in and in public service. And then I was also just sort of independently interested in national security issues as I got older, studied it in college. But I didn't really have a theory on how to sort of translate that into a career. I didn't have the imagination to, like, apply to the CIA at the time. So I became a lawyer and practiced law for 20 years before I had the opportunity to go to the Treasury Department in the post 9/11 period when Treasury had stood up a new unit there that was focused on the financial aspects of national security. And that's how I was sort of able to scratch the the national security itch and the public service itch together. And so I did that at Treasury for a while and then found my way here.
Walter: We can’t confirm nor deny this, but we understand that your nickname there as well was Financial Batman for prowess at tracking and cutting off terrorist finances.
Deputy Director Cohen: Yeah well, everybody else there was quite good at that. I got to brag about it, and that's how I got the nickname.
Walter: Well, sirs, maybe then you could each give us a brief snapshot of what a deputy director does at your respective organizations- at the FBI and at CIA. So, maybe Deputy Director Abbate if we could kick things off with you.
Deputy Director Abbate: The role of Deputy Director I think in both of our agencies, I would describe it as multifaceted and all encompassing. It's an incredible commitment, and it's really a calling. At the highest level from an enterprise perspective, we're working, you know, with our teams and leadership to set the strategic direction for the agencies, both on the operational side and across the business components. And really, I think it's the same uh, here, I would imagine at the Agency. I mean, we're running the daily operations for the Agency at scale, and it's a tremendous privilege to be in the role. As mentioned before, I joined the FBI in 1996, I’m a career agent in the organization, so have come through literally every role at every level to arrive at this. We approach the job with enormous rigor each and every day. We get together every morning with the senior leadership of the Bureau. Again, the operational side and the business side. Probably 40/50 people in the room. We go around and we're briefed on and have discussion on and focus on, the threats that are out there that we're working to disrupt and counter. The resources that we're replying in that regard. And we really take time to each and every day, think things through and make sure we're best positioned, importantly with partners as well, because the CIA is represented in the room along with other US government partner agencies. And that's really important because of the enormous collaboration that we do to execute the mission. And we're focused like that day-in and day-out - morning to night. We close out in a smaller group setting at the end of the day, every day, uh, late, and we repeat that day-in-day-out to make sure that we're positioned best for our country and our citizens to keep people safe and defend the country.
Deputy Director Cohen: Yeah, look, I share very much the same perspective as you described it. Really, the privilege to be able to help run this organization as you have the privilege to run your organization. From the way I look at it, I mean, one thing I do wanna dispel about the deputy director role here is that I think if you, if you are a keen observer of CIA movies, you will see that the deputy director is almost always the bad guy in these movies. And I think…
Deputy Director Abbate: Rightfully so.
(laughter)
Deputy Director Cohen: Yeah. No, I was gonna say I am, so I spend, you know, a lot of trying not to be the bad guy is an important part of my job. Um, you know, but more seriously, it's very similar to what you described, Paul. I mean, I help the Director run the Agency. Provide guidance, provide advice, you know, get briefings on what we're doing. Try as best I can to add value to what the the folks all across this Agency are engaged in every day. You know, I have the opportunity to represent the Agency in the the national security process. You know, there's a a very steady drumbeat of meetings that the White House convenes that that are designed to sort of address the policy issues of all of the national security and foreign policy challenges that the country is facing, and I am the representative to the deputies committee where a lot of these issues are hashed out. I get to engage with partners here in Washington. So obviously a lot of engagement with folks at the FBI and other law enforcement agencies, other others in the Intelligence Community, but also overseas. So a big part of the job also is traveling overseas to see our officers in the field, as well as our our partners and other intelligence services.
Walter: To your point about the villains in movies as well, sir. I think we talked in a previous episode. I think Jack Ryan becomes Deputy Director by the end. So that's that's one positive.
Deputy Director Cohen: It's not invariably, the deputy is the bad guy, but it is, there's a theme. Yeah.
Walter: Yeah it does come up again, suspiciously so.
Deputy Director Cohen: Yeah, yeah.
Deputy Director Abbate: What we really take issue is is when we're, you know, murdered in fictional representations. It's been pointed out to me recently that there's been some series where the Deputy Director of the FBI is is killed or assassinated.
Deputy Director Cohen: That’s not good.
Deputy Director Abbate: Never, never good.
Dee: We went to a dark place right there.
(laughter)
Walter: Well, we thought where we could take the conversation next was, um, to kind of do some CIA versus FBI 101 - just looking to dispel some often-misunderstood differences between the CIA and the FBI, between the roles and responsibilities of both organizations. So, you know Deputy Director Cohen, if we could start with you, how would you characterize the mission of of the CIA?
Deputy Director Cohen: So I think fundamentally what the CIA is about - we are a foreign intelligence organization. We collect foreign intelligence. So information about what is happening overseas, why it's happening, who's involved. We are an all source analytic organization. So we take that intelligence that we collect, as well as other intelligence collected by others around the Intelligence Community, as well as open source information, and write analytic products - the President's Daily Brief, the articles in there, other articles and pieces for for policymakers around the community to try to contextualize and make sense of the intelligence that is being collected so that the the policy makers and the and the President are well positioned to make the best decisions possible about where to take our country. All of that, you know is underpinned by a really extraordinary group of officers who develop the technology that we need to do our work, the logistics that we need to do our work, the IT backbone. So everything that that enables our collectors and our analysts to do their job. You know, and then I guess two just sort of unique things about the Agency - our collection mission is principally what we call HUMINT - human intelligence. So we are responsible for running assets, for recruiting people in foreign countries who have access to information that we need and who are willing to share it with our officers, and who can provide these exquisite insights that you can really only get from a person who is in a position of access and of knowledge. And the other unique aspect of the Agency is that we're also the organization, in the US government, responsible for covert action. So if the President is looking for some way to to address a problem that it sort of falls between diplomacy at one end of the spectrum and military more harder edged, uh, actions at the other end, but something where we're trying to affect a situation in the world without the US hand being apparent, so hiding the hand of the US, the the Agency is asked to engage in that activity. So instead of just describing the world as we see it, to try to affect the world as it may be without it being obvious that the United States is behind it, I think in a nutshell the Agency's mission.
Walter: Really helpful. Thank you.
Dee: Absolutely. Deputy Director Abbate. Same question to you. How would you characterize the mission of FBI?
Deputy Director Abbate: The public facing mission statement for the FBI is to protect the American people and uphold the Constitution. And that really captures the essence of what we do. It's all about keeping people safe from harm, particularly protecting human life, and then defending our country in all aspects, including national and economic security. We have a dual mission and authorities. It's both intelligence and law enforcement. I think we're unique in that regard and lead here domestically. We certainly have an international presence and work closely in collaboration with our Agency colleagues overseas across those mission areas. And when we look at you know what we do within that - the mission priorities. Again, these are, you know, public facing, it does start with national security. Counterterrorism, uh, preventing terrorist attacks continues to be our number one priority, and then we have counterintelligence, espionage, working within that realm, also, cyber which is emerging or has emerged in recent years, and there's both a national security and a criminal component to that. And then we have the more traditional criminal investigative priorities to include working to reduce violent crime here domestically with state and local law enforcement, other partners, fighting public corruption, working against transnational organized criminal groups, which again, that's domestic and international and partnered, as well, protecting individual civil rights, and then working to investigate complex, white-collar crime. That captures the mission pretty much in its entirety. It's wide ranging, very broad. And, you know, we're fortunate to be vested with the authorities and the capabilities that we have, again, spanning intel and law enforcement to bring to bear with partners against all of those threats, with prevention being first and foremost the goal proactively working to prevent things from happening but also having the capability and the resources to respond and investigate, deliver justice when that's necessary as well.
Walter: It's super interesting that, uh, you bring that up, sir, because it sounds almost like FBI has a joint intel and law enforcement mission. CIA has a joint intel and, if directed by the President, covert action mission. So both organizations have a joint function.
Deputy Director Cohen: Yeah. But I think the one area where where we differ significantly is that is, in the law enforcement space - where FBI has law enforcement authorities. We will help the FBI in providing information that we may pick up overseas about a potential, you know, law enforcement matter, particularly here in the US. But then it's over to the FBI to address it. If they wanna address it as a law enforcement matter, rather than intelligence matter over to them, to use their authorities in the law enforcement realm to address that problem.
Deputy Director Abbate: Each of our agencies approaches the work objectively, and it's fact based. And we operate with independence, in terms of pursuing the work, you know, that we do. And I think also as we touched on before, we're both of our agencies, we’re action oriented. We take the intelligence, the information, the facts, and we take a proactive approach geared toward action to be preventative, again, to keep people safe and to protect the country. I think, as David noted, where where we diverge is particularly in the law enforcement.
Deputy Director Cohen: Yeah, can I just foot stomp one thing that that Paul said? And that's the similarity between our two organizations in pursuing our missions objectively, apolitically, fact based. And that is deep in the DNA I think of both of our organizations. We're here to ensure the safety and security of Americans here in the US and abroad. And the way to do that is to be as straightforward and as objective as possible about what the threats are, what the challenges are, and to provide our best assessment of the best way to to go about addressing those challenges. And that is a, that is a critical similarity between our organizations and something that is, I think, for both of us, critical to our organizations.
Walter: This might be a great time to get this out of the way because it comes up in movies and television all the time - agents versus officers. These terms mean very different things to our two organizations. So, you know, could we go through what each means to who.
Deputy Director Cohen: Our employees are officers. When you come to work for the CIA, you're a CIA Officer.
Deputy Director Abbate: Similarly, in the FBI, we have very defined job roles. The sworn law enforcement officer role is the FBI Special Agent. Agent is the, is the term.
Deputy Director Cohen: They're all special. Every one of your agents are special, right?
(laughter)
Deputy Director Abbate: Absolutely. Uh and then you know, beyond that, much like the Agency, we have intelligence analysts and then we have, like the Agency, also, an entire cadre of professional staff roles within the Agency as well.
Walter: Or at CIA, the foreign individual, Deputy Director Cohen, you were talking about, who's who's working with our officers to pass them national security information, that would be what we would consider source or asset or agent.
Deputy Director Cohen: So the the foreign person who has agreed to work with our officer overseas to provide information about what's going on in his or her country. We call that person an agent, or a source, or an asset. But in our vocabulary, that is the agent.
Deputy Director Abbate: And in the Bureau the term we use for a source is, the formal term is confidential human source or CHS. But within the lexicon we use a lot of different terms – asset, source.
Walter: There are a lot of novelists right now are like scratching out their manuscripts.
(laughter)
Dee: So now that we have the basics out of the way, let’s go into some scenario-based questions. We’ll give you an example. You tell us which organization would be responsible for handling that situation.
Deputy Director Cohen: Hope we get this right.
(laughter cross-talk)
Dee: So no pressure, no pressure.
Walter: OK, so first, this federal organization has been tracking a large criminal enterprise that operates across multiple US states for years. Now, at long last, they have information on the location of its key figures and enough evidence to justify a court issued arrest warrant for them. Its officers, or agents, move in, arrest the individuals and take them into custody. So our question for you gentlemen is, which Agency would handle this?
Deputy Director Abbate: I'll jump in. This is the, what you've just described, is the traditional FBI criminal case where we're, you know, after likely a long-term investigation, we're moving in, uh, and obtaining arrest warrants issued by a judge, a court, and then affecting a takedown of the members of the organization and doing a disruption there.
Dee: Ok, so second, an officer or agent of this federal organization is working overseas, gathering information of national security importance to the United States, not as a part of any law enforcement investigation, but to detect threats to the American people and other critical international issues before they arise. This officer/agent meets in secret with a source who claims to have access to information on a new terrorist group forming in the region. Who's handling this one?
Deputy Director Cohen: I think we would most likely be the ones handling this one in the CIA. So if we have a source who is in a position to provide us this kind of information about the terrorist group that is forming and you know potentially threatening the United States, we would meet in secret, clandestinely with that source. We would figure out what he or she knows. We would write that up in a cable and send it back to headquarters. I will say that information will then be shared across the Intelligence Community, including with the FBI, particularly if there is anything in there that has any touch points to the United States or to another criminal or or terrorist organization that the FBI is tracking. So the FBI, um, as part of the Intelligence Community has access to our to our reporting as well. But I think this, uh, this meeting with the source overseas is something that we would, uh we would probably handle.
Walter: Thank you, sir. And third. And you, actually, I think just gave folks at home a clue to the answer to this third one, quite possibly. Um, but this federal organization uncovers foreign intelligence that a massive shipment of dangerous illicit chemicals is inbound to the United States. And, acting on this information, US, let’s call them operatives, interdict the shipment and confiscate the material. So which organization would be handling this one?
Deputy Director Abbate: Yeah, this is where it all comes together. We're working together to affect a disruption, you know, prevent a lethal drug from entering the United States and potentially killing, uh, Americans. And this is really a reflection of a real-life case, uh, that we were all engaged on.
Deputy Director Cohen: Yeah. I mean, this is so if you're thinking of the same case, this was intelligence information that the Agency obtained about a shipment of precursors for fentanyl that, as I recall, were on their way initially into the United States and then for onward shipments, I think down to Mexico where it would be then, you know, mixed into into fentanyl. We obtained this information, had the waybill for the shipment that showed that it was going to be arriving at a particular place, I think in 48 hours. We quickly pushed out the intelligence report on this. I'm sure we also picked up the phone and alerted our our counterparts at the FBI, uh, about this this shipment so that, since this was gonna be in the United States, a law enforcement activity could be initiated. CIA doesn't do that. So over to our law enforcement partners.
Deputy Director Abbate: It's important to note as well that none of this is mutually exclusive. We do have legislated authorities, each of our agencies do, and there are very defined lanes in the road. In terms of the collaboration, we could take it in a lot of different pathways to affect the ultimate outcome that we're all seeking to achieve here in terms of prevention. We also are very integrated and cross detailed and embedded between the agencies. It's very effective.
Deputy Director Cohen: Yeah. Look, I think one of the lessons from 9/11, frankly, was that the CIA and the FBI needed to find ways to work more collaboratively. And so I think one of the things that both our organizations have committed to, and have made a lot of progress on, is ensuring that we have a good lines of communication, and that we collaborate, and we work together. Obviously, we have our authorities and we have our restrictions on what we can do, and and the same for the FBI. So we're mindful of what the lines are, and what we're allowed to do and what we're not allowed to do under the law. But that doesn't prevent us at all from making sure that we collaborate really effectively to deliver to the American people sort of the best of what their government has to offer in providing safety and providing security.
Walter: Well, sirs, it's clear that you both have worked extensively together, and that you both know a lot about each other's organizations. So, let’s ramp things up here and do some rapid-fire questions. And let’s kick things off with the question of if you could have any job at your counterpart’s organization - so Deputy Director Cohen, at FBI or Deputy Director Abbate, at CIA, which would it be?
Deputy Director Cohen: Should I go first?
Deputy Director Abbate: It's a tough question.
Deputy Director Cohen: It is a hard question. Um, you know, so I spent 20 years as a white-collar criminal defense attorney, and and I cannot count the number of times I was on the other side of the table from a FBI special agent who was asking questions to my client. I think that that looked like, although at the time quite painful, seemed like a lot of fun. So I think it'd be fun to be uh, an FBI Special agent working white-collar criminal cases.
Deputy Director Abbate: I have many thoughts here about what I might want to do. I guess I'd go, you know, to the core of what I do now, but take it into the CIA, and I'd wanna be working as an officer, or a tactical operator for the CIA, and the most dangerous toughest environment in the world. You know, working against adversaries there. That's probably what I'm drawn to most. But I also, um, would be interested in much like you do. And this is reflected in our roles now, just representing the Agency - working in media and public affairs, outreach and recruiting, which we do a lot of it within our jobs. But I could see having a lot of interest in taking on a role like that in the CIA as well, which is very different from being on the front line.
Deputy Director Cohen: I could also see being like an FBI lab tech. I think that would be really fun. Like some of the, uh, the folks who do like the ballistics analysis and can figure out this bullet came from that gun because of the the you know, the barrel markings on the thing. That’s like, that's pretty cool.
Deputy Director Abbate: Crime scene investigator. CSI. Bones. Are you familiar with that show?
(laughter)
Deputy Director Cohen: Yeah. Yeah. Crime scene investigator. There we go.
Dee: So some of these other questions - these are just general questions that the world might be curious about. This organization's headquarters is surrounded by lushly wooded terrain.
Deputy Director Cohen: Oh, that's us.
Dee: CIA?
Deputy Director Cohen: Yeah, we've got the benefit of being outside of downtown Washington in beautiful Langley, Virginia, surrounded by by trees. It’s nice.
Deputy Director Abbate: FBI is in downtown DC, uh, in the in historic building. But actually, we love the location because it's, um, proximate to places where we do business every day. We've got the Department of Justice across the street, the National Security Council down the street, Congress in the other direction. And we have hundreds of employees who are doing the work with colleagues from all these entities within government and other agencies as well, each and every day. And I think also we touched on before the transparency that's required of agencies like ours, and particularly the FBI, being in a highly public location where we are having been there for decades now is really important. Having open access to the public where people can see it is also essential to, uh, the work that we do.
Deputy Director Cohen: Yeah, we're a secret intelligence Agency. We like to be out here in the woods.
Deputy Director Abbate: Hidden away.
Dee: How about this one? Which organization has more lawyers?
Deputy Director Abbate: I think we both have a lot of lawyers.
Deputy Director Cohen: Yeah. Practicing lawyers?
Deputy Director Abbate: We're both lawyers. I don't have the, you know, uh experience that the deputy has in white-collar defense and real-world lawyering. But, uh, I did go to law school, and I am a member of a bar.
Deputy Director Cohen: Amazingly, I also passed the bar. But, look, I think both organizations have a lot of lawyers who are actually quite helpful in making sure that, uh that we know what the boundaries are and helping us ensure that, you know, not only do we stay within those boundaries, but that we are effective in in executing our missions. As a lawyer, I must say I'm a big fan of lawyers.
Deputy Director Abbate: It's important for all those reasons. We've both been doing this for a long time. I think that one, it's necessary to ensure that we're operating absolutely, you know, within the law and regulation and everything around that. But I've never, and I've been in the Bureau 28 plus years now, and I've worked in a lot of different places and around the world, I I've always found great value in the necessity of including our office of general counsel and the attorneys within our agencies.
Walter: I think folks at home won’t be surprised by how many lawyers there are both CIA and FBI. Well, next question then would be uh Quantico, whose organization is associated with that?
Deputy Director Abbate: That's where the FBI Academy is located- Quantico, Virginia, home of the Marine Corps, as well. It's actually a Marine Corps base that we are housed on. Our academy has been there for a number of years. Much like, uh, the Agency's training ground, really special place, uh, for us. I often have the opportunity to go back there. I went through training there for 3-4-month period at the outset of my career. And, you know, when you go back there it still brings back the memories and the feelings that one had in entering the organization and the, you know, kind of the privilege that comes with that.
Dee: The Farm?
Deputy Director Cohen: Yeah. So the Farm is our training facility. I won't tell you where it is. Like Paul will tell you where Quantico is.
Deputy Director Abbate: Again. The differences.
Deputy Director Cohen: Again, the difference, exactly. But you know, it serves in many respects the same function that Quantico serves for for the Bureau, which that's where our officers go to get trained. That’s where they spend, you know weeks on end, learning the tradecraft of this new profession that they have, uh, signed up for. And that's where they really become Agency officers.
Walter: This next one is pretty contentious, actually. Who has, uh, who has better food?
Deputy Director Cohen: On on prem? Or off?
Deputy Director Abbate: I'm gonna step in and cede this to the Agency. I think that because, you know we talk about this a lot, I'm really into food, and I'm always asking people this question. But I, I think, I don't want to take this away from you, but this headquarters, your headquarters, has a greater diversity of food options, and I think better food all around, though, though we've gained a lot in recent times.
Deputy Director Cohen: I gotta say, though on the on the other hand, you know, because you are in downtown DC and in close proximity to the, you know to lots of, uh, lots of options. And we have, we have good food here, I I wanna be clear. Our food service does an outstanding job, but it you know, it's very hard to get off campus, and and and get food here, so I don't know. That's, uh, I think there's a..
Deputy Director Abbate: That’s a good point.
Deputy Director Cohen: It’s six of one, half dozen of the other.
Dee: To each their own, I suppose. So, who dresses better?
Deputy Director Cohen: So I wore a white shirt today because I knew I would be doing this, because the FBI always wears white shirts, which is pretty snazzy, you know, it's it's a good crisp look. So I think you guys, you guys may dress better.
Deputy Director Abbate: Yeah, I think it depends on what you're looking for, but true that the Bureau historically is fashion oriented, formally dressed, suit and tie, white shirt. That's the hallmark of the the FBI agent.
Walter: I don't know who wrote these questions, but they were clearly trying to stir stuff up. Um, I have here uh, who's cooler?
Deputy Director Cohen: Between the two of us or the agencies?
(laughter)
Dee: However you want to take that question.
Walter: We had hoped you both say your organizations at the same time….like FBI/CIA.
Deputy Director Cohen: Yeah, I think I'm gonna take a pass on that one.
(laughter cross-talk)
Deputy Director Abbate: I'm I'm just gonna say they're both really, really cool. And, you know, we were talking about this on the way over, I think that's reflected in, you know, public interest in each of the agencies and the work that we do and the people who work here. And we've touched on some movies and TV shows. But when you look around, there's there's no agencies that get more attention in that regard. And I think that says something about the cool factor. There are so many movies, so many television shows, so many books about each of our agencies, and people love it.
Deputy Director Cohen: Yeah, and there are also TV shows, in particular movies as well, that merge our agencies in in what we do, right? So, like Homeland, right? Very popular TV show. Carrie Mathison was supposed to be a CIA officer. Everything that she did is what the FBI does. It was all domestic law enforcement activity, um, and domestic intelligence activity. We don't do what Carrie Mathison does. I'm not sure you guys do either, but it it was sort of this merging of what the CIA and the FBI are all about.
Deputy Director Abbate: It's not always accurate, but it's really cool.
(laughter)
Deputy Director Cohen: Yeah, yeah.
Walter: Well, the next time folks watch a TV show in which a CIA officer is like arresting someone within the United States or or an FBI agent abroad is conducting covert action or something, you can be like, oh, not so fast.
Deputy Director Abbate: That would be a real problem.
(laughter)
Dee: So we started off this episode talking about what drew you to public service, national security. If you were to give an elevator pitch, like a 30-second pitch to someone who hadn't seen themselves kind of in this space before, didn't ever think about a job in the CIA, in the FBI, or in the general Intelligence Community - what would that pitch sound like?
Deputy Director Abbate: What draws people to the FBI, to each of our agencies really, is one - the sense of purpose that comes with the job, protecting and helping others, and the the all around fulfillment that comes from achieving that. And then also, I think each of our agencies offer just a great breadth and diversity of opportunity, uh, in terms of where you can work, both domestically and internationally, and those opportunities exist for both of us, uh, and then the program areas that you can work with. And as I mentioned before, you know, counterterrorism, counterintelligence, cyber, and all the criminal programs as well. There's just a lot there, a lot of opportunity for people to take advantage of, and they gain great fulfillment from carrying out the work. And then I think there's a real sense of family throughout each of our organizations that binds us all together.
Deputy Director Cohen: Yeah, I think that is very similar to the elevator pitch I would give. If you wanna do something that is sort of bigger than yourself. If you are interested in national security, in providing for the American people a secure environment in which folks can live their lives and pursue their ambitions. If you're interested in an intellectual challenge and variety in a career. If you're interested in, you know, in doing things that are actually pretty exciting. I actually think both our organizations offer that. You know, I think the particular mission areas that we have in the Agency, some of them are, are quite similar - there's counterterrorism, there's counterintelligence. But we also, you know have I think a little bit more of a of a foreign focus. If you if you really wanna become an expert, we've got a job for you here at the Agency. So I think that, you know, there's a slightly different emphasis on foreign versus domestic, but like the, the fundamentals are the same. And that's, you know the sense of purpose, the sense of mission, the sense of, you know, of giving back and having a job that is like every day, rewarding in its own right is a is a real privilege in working, I think, in both our organizations.
Dee: Thank you for that.
Walter: Deputy Director Abbate – sir, you spoke about the family that FBI is. We at CIA feel the same way. And there are so many of us, obviously, who have worked alongside members of the Bureau, and needless to say, we have immense respect for what you guys do. So, thank you so much for being here and thank you for everything.
Deputy Director Abbate: Thank you.
Dee: And our thanks to Deputy Director Cohen as well. Thank you both for sitting across the table and having this conversation with us. We really appreciate you being here. It’s been an honor for both of us. So, thank you, both of you, and you're both special, in my, in my opinion.
(laughter)
Deputy Director Abbate: So we have an honorary special agent.
Deputy Director Cohen: Thanks. Thanks for having us.
Deputy Director Abbate: Thank you.
Walter: Well, we were just talking about the different roles and responsibilities for FBI and CIA, and the fact that CIA is the default organization for covert action for the US government. And I think our last trivia question actually involved a covert action.
Dee: Walter, look at you just nailing that segue.
Walter: I love a good segue.
Dee: Right into the trivia question.
(music plays)
Walter: Ok. The last trivia question that was posed to you was -- this year marks the 50th anniversary of an extraordinary feat of CIA ingenuity and a mission with an incredible yet believable cover story, which included a well-known billionaire and the supposed “depths” to which he would go for some minerals. Our question to you is – what was the code-name of this now publicly-known mission?
Dee: If you tuned in to one of our original episodes – in Episode 5, you may recall Rob Byer, the Director of CIA’s Museum, mention his favorite CIA mission which took place back in the 1970s. The mission was called Project AZORIAN. And in this operation, CIA, with the help of billionaire Howard Hughes, created a cover story to subvert attention as CIA looked to raise a sunken Soviet submarine off the Pacific Ocean floor. This cover story included a large mining vessel, named the Glomar Explorer, that was being used to mine manganese nodules from the ocean floor. The actual operation was somewhat successful as they were able to raise a portion of that Soviet submarine, and this amazing feat was deemed an engineering marvel, but unfortunately for the overall mission, the cover story was blown as the story made its way to the press.
Walter: And as Rob said on that episode, that mention in the press is what prompted the now famous line “we can neither confirm, nor deny.” And we call that the Glomar Response, after the Glomar Explorer. Now, for the next trivia question. In this episode, we heard Deputy Director Cohen and Deputy Director Abbate describe the locations of their respective agency’s headquarters. And while CIA Headquarters is currently found surrounded by wooded terrain in Langley, it wasn’t always located here. So our question to you is – where was the official first location of CIA Headquarters?
Dee: Stay tuned to the next episode for the answer, or check out our YouTube channel and see if you can figure it out from there.
Walter: It’s always there. Well, that’s it for this episode. As always, we thank Corey and Grif for the audio expertise, and we thank all of you for tuning in.
(music begins)
Dee: From all of us here at Langley….until next time…
Walter: We’ll be seeing you.
(music continues)
Walter: Dee and I just ducked back into the conference room, and Deputy Director Cohen and Deputy Director Abbate have begun arm wrestling. They’ve revisited that “who’s cooler” question. Things are going sideways fast.
Dee: Oh my gosh. I think, uh, here it comes, over the top. I’m not sure who’s going to win this one.
Walter: This has escalated very quickly. We should never have asked who’s cooler.
Dee: We never should have asked that question.
(laughter)
(music ends)
